ICTJ in the News

December 14, 2003

Iraqi Governing Council Wants To Try Hussein

CNN Live Sunday

Transcript

MILES O'BRIEN: So what happens next to Saddam Hussein? He's in the custody of the Americans. The Iraqi governing council says it would like to put him on trial. And some think U.S. politicians think he ought to go on trial before an international tribunal.

With me now to try to sort all of this out is Paul Van Zyl. He is with the International Center for Transitional Justice and he comes to us from New York. Mr. Van Zyle good to have you with us.

PAUL VAN ZYL, CTR. TRANSITIONAL JUSTIICE: Thank you very much.

O'BRIEN: All right, what is the most likely scenario; the Iraqi provisional government isn't really a government at all. So how is it possible for them to try Saddam Hussein?

VAN ZYL: Well, first it's important to say that this is an extraordinarily important day for the international human rights movement. International organizations have been campaigning for accountability in Iraq long before it became convenient or political expedient to call attention to Saddam Hussein's atrocious human rights track record. So this is a welcome day, and one which many people are greatly heartened by.

O'BRIEN: All right, so let's get back to the question as far as the Iraqi provisional government. Are they in a position to offer up -- because really I think we can all agree the most important thing is for the world to look at whatever trial occurs, and to mostly agree that it is fair.

VAN ZYL: Absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more, Miles. And I think that what we want to see is trials which blend together an appropriate combination of Iraqi ownership and control, and an infusion of international expertise in the form of international judges, prosecutors and investigators.

Now, two independent reports, one commissioned by the Coalition Provisional Authority itself and one by the U.N. have concluded that the Iraqi criminal justice system is chronically dysfunctional.

O'BRIEN: Well, is there really even a justice system right now? Is that accurate to say?

VAN ZYL: Well, I mean, I think there's rudiments of a justice system. But you have to remember that after decades of authoritarian rule, no criminal trial in Iraq lasted more than a few days. And so if you wanted to try to prosecute Saddam Hussein for genocide or crimes against humanity or war crimes, these are the appropriate charges to bring against a man of this nature, you're going to have to bring in international experts who can sift through hundreds, if not thousands of documents who can interview hundreds of people and build a complex case based on an analysis of the chain of command, and you can look at really sophisticated forensic evidence and build a case of genocide against this man.

O'BRIEN: I'm sure there are many Iraqis who would prefer that Saddam Hussein face the same kangaroo course that he subjected his people to. What about calls to move this all to the Hague, the International War Crimes Tribunal, where the mechanisms are already in place?

VAN ZYL: Well, I think that we want to try and have these trials in Iraq. I think there's enormous benefit to have it in the country. People feel as though they own the trials, they can see the trials happening and there's a large Iraqi participation in Arabic. I think we've learned the lessons from the international criminal tribunals of Rwanda and Yugoslavia that we want a higher degree of local ownership, but on the other hand, I think it's indispensable that we have international expertise brought on board and here I think it's important to say that we need to bring the U.N. into this picture. If the U.S. government is too closely associated with these trials, if it either overtly or covertly seeks to control these trials, they won't be legitimate in Iraq, they won't be legitimate in the region, and this incredibly important opportunity to send a signal not just to Iraq but to the Middle East as a whole will be lost because of a fear of U.S. manipulation behind the scenes and I think that's something that we really have to underscore.

O'BRIEN: All right, we're going to leave it on that point. Thank you very much, Paul Van Zyl, with the International Center for Transitional Justice.